Curse

Dewshine Wildclaw · Jan 15, 2012, 09:54 PM // 21:54

I never had problems with elitism in AB O_o
Which have been why it used to be the only format of pvp I ever cared about because I was allowed to run my own kinda build (which was not meta from pvx)
And not even once in the entire time I played gw and in any team that I was on in AB have I been asked about my rank.
Not that either matters now what with no one playing...

I would love to get life to AB, but would be sad if it became random join, as one of the things that makes me prefer AB over the other arenas is that you form your own team of 4. Fairly simple to get 4 people (giving there is people) and it is just more fun to be able to team with a few friends without bending any rules by synching with no guarantee it'll work.

Balance the points might help... maybe it wont... one could hope...

Vincent Evan · Jan 16, 2012, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Here is why AB died:

During the time when it was conceived, there was no doubt that the topic of this arena dying came up on the drawing board. This arena relies on 24 people total to get a match. This amount, multiplied by a safe amount of 5 games, gives us 120 people. The idea of having a large scale match would need a lot of people to actually play. Its quality would be solely dependent on the amount of people who played. No doubt that the other mechanics support it. Alliance Battles is the elementary part of faction cities. In order to obtain an opposed town, your side would need to be good, or at least participate in AB. This is how ANet would draw in this large crowd. Working for land, and working for faction. That is how AB is different than any other PvP format; its dependence and incentive.

GWG is totally con against the topic of Guild Wars being a dead game. Automatically, many people will avoid the crux of the topic and just presume dead is equivalent to having the life beaten out of a dead corpse. This is not what it means. This game is dead, or for those that hate that word: "detrimentally dwindled." This large format NEEDS people. It's totally affected by the fluctuation and in-fluctuations of players. Back in 2009 - mid-2011, the activity in AB could have been graphed by an increase or decrease in player base. As more players came in to GW, the more activity AB would have. This of course, has taken a toll for the worst and AB has become completely (or even less than 4 people abandoned. Because of how "detrimentally dwindled" this game has become, AB, and no doubt other PvP formats, have taken harder hits than usual.

Updates! Everyone loves updates. Major MMOs normally have a PvP update yearly. This sort of update is NOTHING like skill updates, whereas those are simple for "game balance." Of course, by game balance, I mean it as a term for spicing up GW. You can't balance this game anymore, it is to off course. We needed to see major improvements to the pillars of PvP so we could have had a much more long term effect on PvP. Competition has shriveled in every aspect simply because everyone has gotten bored of it. At the very least, ArenaNet could have brought up rewards as an incentive to stick to their old systems. If AB GOT THAT, there is no doubt in my mind that it would be alive and well.

Competition. Sorry for the one-worded sentences that are grammatically incorrect, but bear in mind: AB is a special format. There was major competition in it and for those that mock it as a low-tier arena do it out of ignorance. There is qualitative playing in all aspects of every game. Binding one's self to a single format for social acceptance is silly. Anyhow, AB offered canthan faction to people. No other structured PvP format did so. This seemingly pointless point is a big one if you think about. Not only does AB offer a form of gaming to those who like 4v4 or just PvP altogether, but for those who want faction. You have a wider audience here. AB should've been one of the biggest arenas, as it was made so, but ArenaNet made it's competition to effective. JQ and FA are completely, and mind-numbingly boring. They offer no higher level of playing besides playing a necro bomber (JQ) or a monk on the kurzick side (FA) and winning easily. As it is, these arenas, which are easier are getting more faction over time, while AB gets the same amount of faction over longer periods of time. In the long run, AB is ineffective. FA and JQ should offer littler rewards while AB offers substantially larger rewards-- both in Imperial AND Balthazar faction. This is basically our "World vs World" when comparing to other major MMOs style of large scale battle. With speed clearing now, AB has been brought down even further. Why do PvP at all when you can create (a respectable, in my personal opinion) an effective and cheap method to get faction? ArenaNet's lack of innovation to cut down Speed Clears has made the AB even less effective as a method of PvP and obtaining faction.

The AB regulars. I tended to steer clear of the "popular kids" in AB. I was as good, if not better than them but I noticed trends in their attitude. It was not their elitism that demoted AB, but rather the lack of the community to integrate together. You did have your really bad players while you had your mediocre players. There were many people who were HAers, GvGers, and TAers who simply did not want to be associated with the sterotypes of ABers. ABers were imaged as bad players who had no ability to perform PvP on a tactical or efficient level. As much as it would be easy to say that it was "elitism," that really doesn't fit the glove here. Elitism shuts out players while the AB crowd sort of put them down. Two different mechanisms that got the same result. If gamers noticed that the entirety of PvP formats, they would realize the fault lies in themselves. Every single person had the ability to enrich PvP, but egos really hindered that so. AB became treated as a generalized high tier PvP (by people's egos) while in reality, the demographics of them were sub par to mediocre tier at best.

AB was like that one special kid that nobody ever got close to. Tragically however, his life came to an early end. Destined for much, his fate was shortcoming and with it, the heavy realization comes back to hit us that Guild Wars has been out for 7 years and its time to look on to bigger and better things.

fireflyry · Jan 16, 2012, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Personally I just see it as nothing more than the end result of a PvP game switching motivation and focus to PvE, not ignoring the age of this game mind you.

Guild Wars has really just become a solo-fest to fill up the hall....once that's done what more is there?

I used to love AB, and Guild Wars in general, but imho it was already losing population and interest levels AB wise years ago and EotN just killed it.Most "veterans" did nothing but rag on it as being for "scrubs" anyway but I feel sorry for any new players as back in it's heyday AB was some of the best PvP I've played in any MMO.

Casual, non-elitist and great fun.Oh well.

Missing HB · Jan 16, 2012, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vincent Evan

GWG is totally con against the topic of Guild Wars being a dead game.

That's indeed an issue, but well it's mostly about playtimes concerning PvP... Let's assume i was able to play on euro evenings only, then sure if i was logging, doing the GvG AT every day then logging off, i wouldn't say or think that the game is dead...That's the same case for players repeatedly farming UW/DoA... They only do the same thing and won't think that the game is dead...

Unfortunately, the game( PvP especially) isn't made for inactivity( or isn't made anymore as Hero Battles were removed), and thus people are mostly just trying to play on those hours or not bother..
But that's where the problem is, if you don't find these places " fun ", nor can play on most active hours, then you don't really have anything to do in the game( note : you're not able to do anything)... If you add to it the problem of other formats rewarding much more than AB, it finishs to explain why it is so dead

Vincent Evan · Jan 16, 2012, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

That's indeed an issue, but well it's mostly about playtimes concerning PvP... Let's assume i was able to play on euro evenings only, then sure if i was logging, doing the GvG AT every day then logging off, i wouldn't say or think that the game is dead...That's the same case for players repeatedly farming UW/DoA... They only do the same thing and won't think that the game is dead...

Unfortunately, the game( PvP especially) isn't made for inactivity( or isn't made anymore as Hero Battles were removed), and thus people are mostly just trying to play on those hours or not bother..
But that's where the problem is, if you don't find these places " fun ", nor can play on most active hours, then you don't really have anything to do in the game( note : you're not able to do anything)... If you add to it the problem of other formats rewarding much more than AB, it finishs to explain why it is so dead

I honestly believe that HB would have more activity than CA to this very day. While the system was broken, ANet made the wrong move to just wipe it away completely. It was a bad move on essentially two different scales. A: You're getting rid of a whole PvP format altogether, and B: the after effect of removing such a format shows the faults they've made in game balance. Shadow Steps and RR were the two biggest enemies HB had facing it and ANet simply deleted everything. CA to this day is empty and when it has a form of activity, it's from syncers. But of course, ANet will have its cake and eat it at the same time because it will get activity during the ZCombat hence giving off the idea that it still gets some attention.

AB, I believe, could be fixed with menial updates that just gave larger rewards; very large rewards. Give them a task they can do with a small team and they will get it done.

Fluffy Kittens · Jan 16, 2012, 10:16 PM // 22:16

If you give AB larger rewards, JQ and FA will die (there are too few people who play those just for fun and not rewards).
This has been discussed many times.

Elnino · Jan 16, 2012, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rezz Anna Nicole

If you give AB larger rewards, JQ and FA will die (there are too few people who play those just for fun and not rewards).
This has been discussed many times.

No they won't. FA and JQ are less time consuming so it will house those who don't have as much time on their hands. Also, before the rewards for FA and JQ were buffed in 2008, FA was alive so there's no reason that it would die now.

Vincent Evan · Jan 17, 2012, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rezz Anna Nicole

If you give AB larger rewards, JQ and FA will die (there are too few people who play those just for fun and not rewards).
This has been discussed many times.

That's why in a perfect ratio, the rewards should be the same. AB has much longer matches compared to JQ and FA. Therefore, a system which gives awards should be made to where at a decent time (say 30 minutes or an hour, choose whichever) the rewards given will equate to each other. AB is the longer model, therefore it should give higher rewards per match, whereas with FA/JQ, they would get smaller rewards per match which in the end will come out to be the same.

Missing HB · Jan 17, 2012, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rezz Anna Nicole

If you give AB larger rewards, JQ and FA will die (there are too few people who play those just for fun and not rewards).
This has been discussed many times.

This is quite a /winthread... Let's be honest, why are so many people farming UW/DoA 24/7 ? Because it's about doing the same thing against NPC over and over and still granting a big reward. Is it really fun ? Well, for me it isn't but i can't believe doing it 10 hours/day is fun after a while

Here, the only problem is that bots aren't taken into account.. Bots are in formats where the rewards are easily taken. In FA, you get around 2k pts as luxon for not doing anything, and in JQ players are usually able to have 4 points, which is still free rewards for doing nothing...
In AB, the reward for losing is ridiculous, but you can still have a terrible score even by playing... there's no reason bots would leave FA/JQ ..

An other point is , like i mentionned about DoA/UW, the ratio difficulty/reward... We can honestly say that doing GvG regularly + farming zquest + getting a correct score on MAT gives as much as if you farmed PvE 24/7... but the diference is that PvE is about doing the same over and over and it's guaranteed reward 90% of the time, while it isn't really in PvP...

If you adapt it to FA/JQ- AB, it's quite the same... FA/JQ are much more easier and rely less on personal skills than in AB.. It's mostly about running the OP bar, spamming it on henchs over and over and etc... In AB, if you don't have people with some tactics, people who can kill( and have a good monk), etc.. you won't win neither...

drkn · Jan 17, 2012, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

That's why in a perfect ratio, the rewards should be the same. AB has much longer matches compared to JQ and FA. Therefore, a system which gives awards should be made to where at a decent time (say 30 minutes or an hour, choose whichever) the rewards given will equate to each other. AB is the longer model, therefore it should give higher rewards per match, whereas with FA/JQ, they would get smaller rewards per match which in the end will come out to be the same.

Sounds okay on paper, but... let's notice a few facts:
* you get Imperial Faction for winning in AB, so it doesn't matter whether you play Luxon or Kurzick side when you want to progress in either title;
* being in a Luxon guild, you can easily access AB from the Kurzick side without guesting another guild, and vice versa;
* the default rewards for winning AB are increased;
* AB is on the Zaishen Combat list - rewards for it might also be increased;
* people like getting rewards;
* people like getting rewards in a farmable manner - fast, with no chance of losing and thus wasting time.

AB should have longer matches, but it might be easily exploited. People interested in farming the new rewards - and, trust me, there would be dozens upon dozens of people who want to get easy faction, much faster than through MQSC/MTSC - would pick one side and use their main accounts to play that side. Then, they would use their alt accounts - or, in general, free accounts they have access to, as it might also involve logging on a long-inactive friend's account - and form groups for the other side. The idea would spread like a bonfire, and within a month, 90% of the 'alt account' side (let's say - Kurzicks) is, indeed, alt accounts. Who are there only to resign, so that the Luxon side might easily reap rewards. Players who still play Kurzick side would notice that, and would most likely switch to play Luxons - after all, they want to get faction as well. They would contribute their own alt accounts to resign with them as Kurzicks.
Result? Another format is completely dead and broken in terms of real gameplay, just as, sadly, HB got. ANet then takes drastic steps against both offenders and the format itself, severely limiting the rewards in the best scenario, again rendering the format completely unused and dead.

Long story short, everything that's only player-based and doesn't involve strong, direct competition or uncorruptable AI monsters cannot be beefed too high with rewards, because of the exploitable nature of such formats. And while ANet could quite easily nerf UWSC or DoASC by removing several core skills or reshaping the areas a little bit, fixing the corruptibility of PvP formats would require a serious redesign of the whole system, or adding an additional incentive for playing which would be much higher than that for winning, which is unreal in an MMO game.

headlesshobbs · Jan 18, 2012, 01:38 AM // 01:38

I think the whole strategy would change if there were no longer any points given for holding more caps. Groups forced to kill for their score and hold the type of caps needed for an advantage will do much to restore a sense of strategy. Keep the point gain as it is, noobs will just play gaybag roulette till the match ends.

And again, throw in my suggestion for unclickable posts in pvp, just for the bot farmers to get pissy over.

superraptors · Jan 18, 2012, 02:41 AM // 02:41

reduce vanquishing faction rewards and buff ab.

tummlykins · Jan 18, 2012, 07:46 AM // 07:46

I wish ArenaNet would do some more pre-emptive upkeep instead of letting good arenas like this one die due to increasing entry difficulty and poor rewards. If they had actively tried to increase rewards (it was inferior to FA and JA before their last buff, never mind since the last buff) and it's always been difficult to find a group for a casual player with no interest in running specialised builds. Would we even be in this position if they changed it to single player random entry and buffed the rewards?

Why does ArenaNet let things like this happen without trying different things to prevent them in the first place?

@ drkn: That's total nonsense. The leeching and reporting mechanisms in the game are too powerful for people to run an exploit like that. HB was removed because it was a bad arena for most people, it only had a small dedicated fan base. It also only required a single person to abuse it, so it was easily manipulated by everyone. AB has historically been very popular (and is one of the most universal PvP types in gaming - capture the point). No-one who cares about their accounts would run an exploit like you described - they would easily become banned in a matter of weeks. The resource investment to manipulate AB like that is easily tracked and bannable.

leongrado · Jan 18, 2012, 08:23 AM // 08:23

Competitive mission seem to be more profitable for factions. Although it's still pretty ridiculous that it's completely become barren.

Missing HB · Jan 18, 2012, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by tummlykins

It also only required a single person to abuse it, so it was easily manipulated by everyone.

I'm sorry to quote you here sir, but something that can be manipulated by everyone is better than something that can only be manipulated by cheaters not getting banned..
As far as i know, multi launch allows a single player to farm GvG/Codex alone( i think you also had a more explicit proof if you played the PvP version of great snowball fight of gods on wintersday..)

But like some guy said, there are 4 ways of earning factions, that's quite a lot to do anything... What AB needs is a better competition part, not only play and get the same kind of reward as if you played JQ or if you went to farm a pve area

drkn · Jan 18, 2012, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

The leeching and reporting mechanisms in the game are too powerful for people to run an exploit like that.

Awesome, but you do realise there are lots upon lots of people with secondary (and more) accounts, a lot of them being spare and expendable if it meant seriously beefing the main account. And, after a while, when all the Kurzicks are just there to resign (alt accounts), and all the Luxons are there to reap buffed rewards (main accounts - not only of people who contribute their alts to the 'cause'), there would be no incentive to report the exploiters, save for some true AB-lovers. I imagine the vast majority of the playerbase would be thrilled by the possibility of easy rewards gained by just getting into a very 'active' (account-wise) format with sure, farmable prize.

Quote:

HB was removed because it was a bad arena for most people, it only had a small dedicated fan base.

Oh, i would argue about that 'small dedicated fan base' of HB, a long time before RR exploit was introduced. More so, ANet stated that HB was removed mostly because of easy manipulation - not only the RR case, but also ladder manipulation, as it was simply too prone for any kind of exploitation, being limited to 1v1.

Quote:

It also only required a single person to abuse it, so it was easily manipulated by everyone.

I do agree with you, but it doesn't rule out the easy manipulation of more people-involved formats - not at all. Just take a look at GvG, snowballs or Codex. People do use their alt accounts to reap easy rewards from them, especially on ZC day. That was the reason why ANet withheld awarding the Strongboxes unless the match lasts at least 5 minutes - because people managed to abuse the system with their secondary accounts, to just form quick matches and resign at the beginning, over and over, getting hundreds of Strongboxes within a short period of time.
And this exactly would happen if the rewards for AB were seriously buffed up, but on a much bigger scale.

Quote:

AB has historically been very popular (and is one of the most universal PvP types in gaming - capture the point).

Invalid point - TA in its long days of glory was probably much more popular than AB has ever been.

Quote:

No-one who cares about their accounts would run an exploit like you described - they would easily become banned in a matter of weeks. The resource investment to manipulate AB like that is easily tracked and bannable.

They did risk it for exploiting HB via RR. They did risk it for exploiting GvG for Strongboxes. They did risk it for exploiting the snowballs, in various ways. There were probably many more 'bannable offences' that were never really punished; as there are nowadays, just taking a look at all the bots in JQ is enough to realise that those 'easily tracked and bannable' accounts are still in the game. Why? Ask ANet, but that's not the point here. Even if there was a major surge of bans, most likely only the constantly resigning accounts would've been banned - the expendable secondary accounts, that is.

JONO51 · Jan 18, 2012, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Just give it a new title based off wins and/or a winners chest, make it so the maps rotate each day and ban retards from joining matches. There, all the problems fixed.

Mouark · Jan 18, 2012, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Ab died because there are fewer people on gw now, and most of the people who still play are terrible.
A lot of them think they're really good, and don't have any intention of improving; so you just get stuck with a small pool of terrible players.

There aren't enough people to make the game balanced because the few good players are either winning against really bad people, or losing because their allies are even worse.

Hardly anyone wins now because they played well, it's just which side has more bad players.
Mediocre players are winning because they sync, because one good and two bad loses against 3 mediocre.

Veldan · Jan 20, 2012, 11:44 AM // 11:44

I believe 2 things could have saved AB (probably to late now though):

1) better kuz/lux/imp faction rewards, as in better than JQ/FA
2) random entry, if people could just click enter without needing to form a group, it would have had better chances of survival

Of course amount of people in GW counts, but there's well enough people in GW to keep AB going 24/7, it's just that nobody can be bothered.

headlesshobbs · Jan 21, 2012, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Hows this for a request.

- Give AB equal rewards to JQ/FA
- Remove all rewards from JQ/FA

Big lol that'll never happen, but it would shake things up anyway.